Curse

Martin Alvito · Feb 24, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

There isn't a right or wrong answer to the issue. You just haven't been acknowledging the fact that there are valid arguments to be made for pushing Mesmer down the priority list until there's a solution that gives them a viable niche.

From a social justice standpoint, you can argue that Mesmers have been ignored for so long that they deserve attention. This is what your side of the argument is attempting to claim. But there's an equally valid argument on the other side that they aren't worth the attention because they aren't played by many people, and the people that play Mesmer chose voluntarily to do so despite the flaws of the class in PvE.

Neither side is necessarily right or wrong. It comes down to values. You're correct that further discussion is futile once the arguments are on the table, and that we can only agree to disagree.

But if you want anything constructive to come of this discussion, you should start focusing on the end goal that would push Mesmer up the priority list and get you what you want: identifying changes that would make Mesmers viable but not overpowered as a class in PvE. Josip's changes won't do that, so we need some new proposals that address the real issue.

Lopezus · Feb 24, 2010, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

But if you want anything constructive to come of this discussion, you should start focusing on the end goal that would push Mesmer up the priority list and get you what you want: identifying changes that would make Mesmers viable but not overpowered as a class in PvE. Josip's changes won't do that, so we need some new proposals that address the real issue.

But as you correctly stated it comes down to values so producing arguments won't do me any good since, for example : where you states that mesmer need special niche in pve, i say there's nothing wrong in mesmers (using mesmer skills) to put on other profesion boots to have some fun and recognition in pve (since creating the unique mesmer niche might as well never happen). So for my arguments , you will find counterarguments from your point of view and we will be going circles again.

Martin Alvito · Feb 24, 2010, 07:46 PM // 19:46

No, finding a solution that broadly impacts the playerbase breaks the circle.

At that point the "Warriors and Necros get played and deserve attention as a result" argument breaks down and you're in the driver's seat. You've got social justice and social efficiency on your side. But that will only work if you can put an alternative in play that would make Mesmers viable but not overpowered in PvE.

drkn · Feb 24, 2010, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

But there's an equally valid argument on the other side that they aren't worth the attention because they aren't played by many people

it's a vicious circle. no one plays mesmers, because they're weak, and they will remain weak, because no one plays them. making vicious circles is usually wrong by definition.
more people, including some of those few newcomers we have, would play mesmers if they were powerful enough. other people might reroll from dervs or paras, or even their GWAMM monks they've achieved everything on.

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and the people that play Mesmer chose voluntarily to do so despite the flaws of the class in PvE.

i've pointed it out about three times and i will do it again for you.
newcomers choosing their class usually don't use guru. newcomers read manuscripts. some newcomers read wiki. i doubt that totally new people, with no friends already playing, will ask communities and read through several fansites to pick their class.
i've read the manuscripts and the wiki. managing my and party's energy? great! disabling enemies? awesome! dealing insane damage through punishing the actions of mobs? terrific! stealing enemies' skills? cool!
the problem is - wiki/manuscripts/official sources of knowledge available to new people lie. or, well, they miss the truth of mesmer's abilities in the actual gameplay, if you prefer to call it that way.

and after you beat that campaign you bought, then buy another and beat it - with that mesmer - you still have NO real idea that your class is handicapped when compared to others. you still have no cool skills from nf/eotn, you think. you still have to complete all of them to use whole variety of builds, you think. if you started with a friend playing monk or warrior, they still have skills to get as well, they still have to learn playing - you compare yourself with also-'crippled' class this way, so nothing's wrong. the problem is even bigger if your friend learns the game slower than you - even though he plays ele, his party wipes often in kryta while you had your survivor title up till the crystal desert.

all of it gives you false image of your class. and when you realise that there's something wrong, that there are rits, necros, wars and monks but you very rarely see other mesmers, when you try to compete with your friend after getting all campaigns and you're still totally outclassed, when you read somewhere that mesmers are underpowered - it's a bit too late.
you either have the option to keep playing your character or reroll to another one. after you've beaten all campaigns on a character, even a mesmer, bought elite armor, invested time and money, it's hard to reroll. especially if you can't play eight hours a day and you would need months to get a new char to the place where your mes is.
so you grab ol' discord or another hero-team build and roll through pve, as heroes can usually do it on their own. the problem starts when you think about balance, when you look at other classes, when you try to get into a group of alive players or you try to actually run something based on your primairy class with them. when you want to feel that you're doing your job and that it's useful to the group, that you fill a niche.

that's why i've posted an idea to explicitly note on wiki the current state of mesmers in end-game pve: to warn newcomers that may base their choose on it. as seriously, after someone played a nuker/healer/tank/necromancer in another mmo, playing mindstealer/mind meddler/crowd controler - and whatnot mes is supposed to be - is VERY tempting.

Chthon · Feb 24, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

The major flaw with this thread is the premise that balance updates ought to prioritize buffing where it is most needed (ie mesmers). That's wrong. Balance updates ought to prioritize first on the basis of what is possible and practical, and then second on what most needs attention. Blood magic was a relatively easy fix. Mesmers (and rangers and dervishes) have some seemingly intractable problems.

Cuilan · Feb 24, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The major flaw with this thread is the premise that balance updates ought to prioritize buffing where it is most needed

"It's good to hear your opinion on this matter."

We don't know if they're done buffing necromancers yet. The next skill update may likely have a lot of necromancer skill buffs.

The Josip · Feb 24, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snark is dead

Hai The Josip. Is this the part where I have to post the screenshots I had a feeling I should take just in case? Must I really?

Stop trying to cloud the discussion.

1. Did you, at the time of interview, use any mesmer skills? No. As you admit. And it's seen from your own screenshot.
2. Did anyone else in the outpost use any mesmer skills? No, at least all those I managed to grab, except the farming-build As.
3. Did you say you sometimes used mesmer skills? Yes, and completely pointless to my empiric data collecting because I wasn't doing historical overview of GW player habbits.

You agree with all this. But you don't like how it sounds. Too bad.

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you claimed that even as a secondary, Mesmer skills are useless and underused in PvE outside of an Assassin farm build

If you werent so emotional about it you would maybe see what I said.

Someone claimed mesmer secondary is amazingly popular, the most popular, or something like that. I said that while AE is used, mesmer secondary is by no means 'amazingly popular' and I went to prove that with empiric data, which you helped me gather. And no, I didn't say mes skills are useless outside of As farm build, stop putting words in my mouth and what is this obsession of yours with as farm builds.

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Originally Posted by Silmar Alech

but in normal PUG play for missions, or in vanquishs with guild or PUG, they have a place and a role to play. It's not always AoE damage dealing.

Build please.

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Originally Posted by trankle

While I agree with your conclusions, your methodology is faulty. If you wanted to bring up your survey in an argument, it should have a little more substance:

1. You sampled players once at one mission outpost. Is there anything specific to the mission that would favor one class over another?

Consular Docks was ZM, and it's really typical PvE mission with nothing special. It even favors mesmers, for instance I ran FD build there.

So, if my methodology is faulty, by all means, you can do the same in some other outpost and post your data.

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what if I had done my own poll, choosing Gate of Pain as my outpost? Would you have taken my data at face value, or argued that this mission is distinct in that many players bring interrupt skills?

Every data has a value. The more the merrier.

Though, I can't help but notice that you want my data to be wrong, and now seek something wrong with my selection. My selection was the most general I could make = ZM. There's Ring of Fire today. Try it

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2. I saw no mention of hero builds in your data. I know that in the two threads in which this argument is taking place, some folks have come forward and said that Me skills are used in many of their hero builds. Did you collect this data from players in the outpost, or use player builds only? Why?

No. Good hero builds are posted on wiki. Paragon builds, necro builds, rt builds etc. None of these use Me secondary to my knowledge. Showing that someone in PvE is using monk hero (subpar choice) and uses me skills, is only indication that mes is subpar choice if nothing else.

As for popularity, I was interested in popularity of skills among players itself. I am not interested in hero popularity contest.

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If the whole outpost were comprised of W, Mo, and E players, with one N and no Me, that would hardly make your case. Again, the data's just not there.

Popularity is popularity. If W Mo and E are in the outpost, then those are popular, and secondaries they use.

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Originally Posted by Del

you use opinion and little bits of information gathered, call it logic and evidence. but considering how many people i know that actually use mesmer skills in pve, and more than likely the thousands that do

I'd like to see your data. Talk to me after that.

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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Good farmers don't do ZQs often.

No one was talking about degenerative form of gameplay known as farming. I stated that clearly. I stated I was looking at general PvE gameplay. Which of these is not clear?

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The basic problem with the sample is that it is almost certainly not representative for a variety of reasons:

I apologize for missing it, but where is your empiric data? Choose your defensive line:

"It cannot be done"
"It's impossible to interview so many people"
"I can't go through all mission and outposts because by the time I come to 10th people in 1st would change"
"I don't have time to do it"

Not here to just criticize? Alright, I'll wait to see your data.

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Reworking Blackout and Diversion doesn't kill things. PvE is about killing things in the fastest amount of time possible

Or effectively blocking. Obviously, poor 1-target would-be-shutdowns won't solve it. But AoE Blackout as I suggestion purely theoretically - would be interesting and it would work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Blood magic was a relatively easy fix.

Easy fix? Have you seen those overpowered-to-be blood magic skills? If mesmers got something like that there would be mass rage on how it's impossible to balance mesmers without making them overpowered, yet with any other class it's ok.

Soon Ritualists will be better hexers than mesmers. It's not that it cant be done, there's just no desire and there's collective consciousness whispering "it can't be done" and everyone stands like hypnotized.

The Drunkard · Feb 24, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

What does that prove, that there are bad players who use monk heroes? EMo NRt, those are healers. Pdrain and Wnwn are subpar options that some players use with subpar heroes. Which exactly proves my point.

You do realize that monks don't just redbar, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Fair enough, but I'm not taking into consideration degenerative forms of gameplay but general PvE.

Farming is a way to accumulate money without playing the same storyline over and over again. Do not exclude a form of pve that has existed in most mmo's becasue you do not aprove of it.

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Originally Posted by The Josip

Who uses Deep Freeze in general PvE (HM)? Especially with Auspicious? Out of 500 eles you're going to find what, 2 of them that use Auspicious? That's hardly super popular combination.

I was hoping that you would get my implication about the "looking into the elite areas" but I might have been a bit too vague. With caster spike teams (such as FoC or the blue laser beam), there is usually a mesmer that uses DF to snare the mob for the rest of the group to AoE them to death.

As mentioned by other posters, if you want to have credible evidence you are going to have to a more thorough job at proving your point. I am still standing by my point that a mesmer's skills are more usefull to other primaries than themself because of the groups I've been in and the builds posted on pvx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Storage chars don't need buffs. Mesmers' have no real place in PvE afterall... Blood Magic needed an serious overhaul.

Good choice.

The same comment could've been said for rits before they got their update. I'm still optimistic that sometime before GW shuts down mesmers will get some pve love.

Martin Alvito · Feb 24, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I'd like to see your data. Talk to me after that.

Bad data is no better, and in many ways worse, than no data at all. Bad data => misleading inferences => worse situation than the null state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

No one was talking about degenerative form of gameplay known as farming. I stated that clearly. I stated I was looking at general PvE gameplay. Which of these is not clear?

The charge was that your data was not representative of the underlying population of GW players. You have not addressed this charge. I am free to ignore your data as biased until you provide a representative sample. It's on you to produce a representative sample if you want to use empirical data to support your conclusions.

Until then, I and many others will stick to the intuitive proposition based on experience and theory that not many people play Mesmer.

Lopezus · Feb 24, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Bad data is no better, and in many ways worse, than no data at all.

OOT but only true if there was a chance for better data, but since no one else was eager to present better data , these "bad" data is best we have and therefore it's better then no data at all,and as this thred shows it makes collosal difference, because you can now criticize Josip's data and although mostly irrelevant to subject of this topic it stirred discussion into: data gathering, analyzing etc, but as a net result it stoped rebutal and obnoxious:"vast majority of players" , " we all know ,see ,think ...", " there are thousands ..." and so on.

reaper with no name · Feb 24, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

it's a vicious circle. no one plays mesmers, because they're weak, and they will remain weak, because no one plays them. making vicious circles is usually wrong by definition.
more people, including some of those few newcomers we have, would play mesmers if they were powerful enough. other people might reroll from dervs or paras, or even their GWAMM monks they've achieved everything on.

i've pointed it out about three times and i will do it again for you.
newcomers choosing their class usually don't use guru. newcomers read manuscripts. some newcomers read wiki. i doubt that totally new people, with no friends already playing, will ask communities and read through several fansites to pick their class.
i've read the manuscripts and the wiki. managing my and party's energy? great! disabling enemies? awesome! dealing insane damage through punishing the actions of mobs? terrific! stealing enemies' skills? cool!
the problem is - wiki/manuscripts/official sources of knowledge available to new people lie. or, well, they miss the truth of mesmer's abilities in the actual gameplay, if you prefer to call it that way.

and after you beat that campaign you bought, then buy another and beat it - with that mesmer - you still have NO real idea that your class is handicapped when compared to others. you still have no cool skills from nf/eotn, you think. you still have to complete all of them to use whole variety of builds, you think. if you started with a friend playing monk or warrior, they still have skills to get as well, they still have to learn playing - you compare yourself with also-'crippled' class this way, so nothing's wrong. the problem is even bigger if your friend learns the game slower than you - even though he plays ele, his party wipes often in kryta while you had your survivor title up till the crystal desert.

all of it gives you false image of your class. and when you realise that there's something wrong, that there are rits, necros, wars and monks but you very rarely see other mesmers, when you try to compete with your friend after getting all campaigns and you're still totally outclassed, when you read somewhere that mesmers are underpowered - it's a bit too late.
you either have the option to keep playing your character or reroll to another one. after you've beaten all campaigns on a character, even a mesmer, bought elite armor, invested time and money, it's hard to reroll. especially if you can't play eight hours a day and you would need months to get a new char to the place where your mes is.
so you grab ol' discord or another hero-team build and roll through pve, as heroes can usually do it on their own. the problem starts when you think about balance, when you look at other classes, when you try to get into a group of alive players or you try to actually run something based on your primairy class with them. when you want to feel that you're doing your job and that it's useful to the group, that you fill a niche.

that's why i've posted an idea to explicitly note on wiki the current state of mesmers in end-game pve: to warn newcomers that may base their choose on it. as seriously, after someone played a nuker/healer/tank/necromancer in another mmo, playing mindstealer/mind meddler/crowd controler - and whatnot mes is supposed to be - is VERY tempting.

Truth.

Because if you replace "mesmer" with "dervish", this becomes my story exactly.

"A scythe-wielding paladin that can turn into avatars of the gods?! I'm sold!"

"Avatar of Grenth with a conjure rocks!"

"Aura of Holy Might? What's that?"

"Wait, assassins can do how much damage with the scythe?"

"Guess all I have left worth using is Wounding Strike..."

"Uh oh. Math says that even with deep wound, I still won't kill as fast as other scythe users. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO."

*Cue journey to sardelac*

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the memories.

Martin Alvito · Feb 24, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

OOT but only true if there was a chance for better data

A matter of conjecture that depends entirely upon how biased you are against Type II errors. Presenting this thesis as fact is at best misleading and at worst intellectually dishonest.

I've done enough research of my own to have a healthy respect for how problematic bad data really is.

MagmaRed · Feb 24, 2010, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Or effectively blocking. Obviously, poor 1-target would-be-shutdowns won't solve it. But AoE Blackout as I suggestion purely theoretically - would be interesting and it would work.

Easy fix? Have you seen those overpowered-to-be blood magic skills? If mesmers got something like that there would be mass rage on how it's impossible to balance mesmers without making them overpowered, yet with any other class it's ok.

Soon Ritualists will be better hexers than mesmers. It's not that it cant be done, there's just no desire and there's collective consciousness whispering "it can't be done" and everyone stands like hypnotized.

I'll start by calling you an idiot. MAYBE that will get your attention. Now, if I have your attention, why have you ignored me? Twice I posted this, and this will be the third time. My second time was a quote of my first.

You proposed they change some skills to make Mesmer more effective for PvE. Of those skills, you included Blackout, Guilt, Shame, etc. Nowhere in that idea did I see a link to Fast Casting. If they were to change those skills you mentioned, why would a PUG take a Mesmer to use them, when they could just as easily take a N/Me, Rt/Me, R/Me, Mo/Me, W/Me, etc.? Without changing FAST CASTING, or making the skills you change linked to FAST CASTING, why would anyone choose a Mesmer over a x/Me? You aren't fixing a class, you are adjusting skills to make PvE easier for the people who already run other classes.

Chthon · Feb 25, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

You proposed they change some skills to make Mesmer more effective for PvE. Of those skills, you included Blackout, Guilt, Shame, etc. Nowhere in that idea did I see a link to Fast Casting. If they were to change those skills you mentioned, why would a PUG take a Mesmer to use them, when they could just as easily take a N/Me, Rt/Me, R/Me, Mo/Me, W/Me, etc.? Without changing FAST CASTING, or making the skills you change linked to FAST CASTING, why would anyone choose a Mesmer over a x/Me? You aren't fixing a class, you are adjusting skills to make PvE easier for the people who already run other classes.

Just because it's not super-obvious, in addition to buffing FC, mesmers could also be buffed by improving skills that require a certain secondary which does not make a better primary. Me/A is the best example. Since Me/A always beats A/Me as a caster, you can buff things that require AP to work well and the mesmer comes away the biggest winner.

The most obvious choice is CoP. I've suggested many times that the correct way to do CoP is: "Interrupt target foe and remove 1 mesmer hex. If a hex is removed in this way, that foe and all foes in the area take 50...100 damage."

Unfortunately, this is just nibbling at the edges of a problem that has no good solution. A mesmer can't do damage, healing, or damage prevention as well as other classes, and pretty much nothing else is worth doing enough to justify foregoing more damage, healing, or damage prevention.

maxxfury · Feb 25, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Universal decrease of players damage outputs and defensive strength, aka reverse the power creep.. giving disruptions a slight buff and a chance to matter in the long term. that sounds fun

And a regular energy pool for mobs

but thats lol as they would prob fail hard without so much juice

I know its all already been suggested but im bored

MagmaRed · Feb 25, 2010, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The most obvious choice is CoP. I've suggested many times that the correct way to do CoP is: "Interrupt target foe and remove 1 mesmer hex. If a hex is removed in this way, that foe and all foes in the area take 50...100 damage."

Same problem. E/Me can easily take Fragility and CoP and use it effectively to get that damage. Why would you need to use a Mesmer to apply a Mesmer hex? There are a lot of low energy, low recharge hexes available, even a W/Me could do it if they were smart. CoP requires Mesmer secondary if you aren't using a Mesmer anyway, so why would your change make it require a Mesmer primary? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think a 12 second recharge requires the use of Assassin's Promise, especially when you could take Echo and/or Arcane Echo.

Chthon · Feb 25, 2010, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Same problem. E/Me can easily take Fragility and CoP and use it effectively to get that damage. Why would you need to use a Mesmer to apply a Mesmer hex? There are a lot of low energy, low recharge hexes available, even a W/Me could do it if they were smart. CoP requires Mesmer secondary if you aren't using a Mesmer anyway, so why would your change make it require a Mesmer primary? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think a 12 second recharge requires the use of Assassin's Promise, especially when you could take Echo and/or Arcane Echo.

Did you ever play AP+Arcane Echo+CoP? A single Me/A could pump out as many CoP's as 3 or 4 X/Me wannabes. If CoP was buffed to being worthwhile again, everyone would benefit, since everyone could use it, but mesmers would benefit a lot more than the other classes.

asb · Feb 25, 2010, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

And a regular energy pool for mobs

but thats lol as they would prob fail hard without so much juice

Not if you gave them a skill that decreases the cost of all skills: Expertise on steroids. Making it an unstripable effect with an unlimited duration and giving them a normal sized energy pool would improve the Mesmers ability to....

Haha, listen to me, what the am I even talking about? Improving Mesmers, that's a good one!

The Josip · Feb 25, 2010, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Farming is a way to accumulate money without playing the same storyline over and over again. Do not exclude a form of pve that has existed in most mmo's becasue you do not aprove of it.

Disease existed in all civilizations, which proves what?
Skills are not balanced for farming (except sometimes some are nerfed because of farming) but it has been no intention of ANet to make professions equally good at farming. It just happens that sometimes some build is more suitable to farming, that's all.

The core of farming is skill IMbalance. That's what farming is based on. Therefore, all debate about farming should go to farming section, not to skill balance section. I dont mind if you farm all day long, but it really has no point to discuss farming in this thread.

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I am still standing by my point that a mesmer's skills are more usefull to other primaries than themself because of the groups I've been in and the builds posted on pvx.

Non farming wiki build pls.

Empiric evidence IG please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Bad data is no better, and in many ways worse, than no data at a

Your data is where?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Nowhere in that idea did I see a link to Fast Casting. If they were to change those skills you mentioned, why would a PUG take a Mesmer to use them, when they could just as easily take a N/Me, Rt/Me, R/Me, Mo/Me, W/Me, etc.? Without changing FAST CASTING, or making the skills you change linked to FAST CASTING, why would anyone choose a Mesmer over a x/Me? You aren't fixing a class, you are adjusting skills to make PvE easier for the people who already run other classes.

Hey there. I fully understand what you mean, I actually did make one example but not sure if it was in this thread.

Arcane Languor (PvE) - made into elite Blackout, AoE effect, tied to FC of course. Let's be honest, this skill as is will never be used in PvE, but elite blackout tied to FC would help mesmers.

One other thing - as Upier said, problem with Necromancers is their skills are too cheap compared to awesome e-gain they get.
Also, if you notice non-mesmer casters, you will see that each skill update contains reduction of casting time for some of those skills. What does that mean? Less point in FC and more point in x/Me indeed.

How to fix it? Making skills under FC attribute actually useful (none of them is right now in PvE, I think this is 'unique' among all professions). And, as has been said before, lowering the energy cost of mesmer skills. If you have 5e cost of modified Backfire I posted earlier, with 2sec casting time, then you have no need to take x/Me.

Example: Ritualist spirits. R/Rt was much better before than Rt primary. Ranger actually had enough energy to spam them constantly due to expertise, and, it could use Oath Shot to recharge them. But now, Ritualist has enough energy thanks to overpowered Spirit Siphon, and thanks to much lower cost of spirits. Also, SoS was redesigned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Did you ever play AP+Arcane Echo+CoP? A single Me/A could pump out as many CoP's as 3 or 4 X/Me wannabes. If CoP was buffed to being worthwhile again, everyone would benefit, since everyone could use it, but mesmers would benefit a lot more than the other classes.

That's true, but let's not forget many of us are bored already with pumping PvE skills. While I do agree it would be nice to have good mesmer-only PvE skills (redesigned CoP), I'd much rather focus on actual mesmer skills. The problem here is that AP is just too strong, but it's also the only thing left (FD is too situation specific).

Trip555 · Feb 25, 2010, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Assassin needs nerf after the update.

The thing why Mesmer is so weak, is because they nerfed the signature skill VoR.
Take SS from Necro and it doesnt look much better, take Save Yourselves from the imbagon and so on.

So pretty simple if a class relies on 1 or 2 skills and you nerf them, give them another thing to play.